— Yuri, most of the Russian and Polish scientists, politicians, 2-states have long agreed on the fact that the executions of Poles in Katyn in the spring of 1940 perpetrated by the NKVD of the USSR. Do you agree with that?
— I may be willing to only one: in Katyn were shot by people in the main poles. But the exact date of execution, the number of killed and their national identity should determine the objective judicial investigation.
— Judging by the first placed 90th archival materials, all was executed 21,857 Polish prisoners. And that's completed in 2004, an investigation of the Chief Military Prosecutor's Office of the Russian Federation confirmed that the "troika" of the NKVD was sentenced to death 14,542 Polish prisoners of war. Why such disparity in numbers?
— With numbers so far the case is black. Who else wants to, he thinks so. What's all the same for the "crime", the same documents clarify: it is not about the officers and generals of the Polish Army, but of jailers, sullied himself liquidation captured Red Army in 1920 — 1921 years, showboat Communists who were in concentration camps Birch Kartuzskaya, of gendarmes, the vast peasant unrest Belorussians and Ukrainians, the so-called "osadnikov" — former Legionaries who became colonizers on the Belarusian and Ukrainian lands.
— And from what generally starts "Katyn affair"?
— For the first time on finding mass graves in the Katyn forest in 1943, said the representatives of the Third Reich, whose troops occupy Smolensk region in the process of coming to the USSR. Russian Alliance, obviously, denied any involvement in the Tipo occurred there in 1940 shootings. After the liberation of Smolensk Russian troops was created Nikolai Burdenko Commission, which conducted its own investigation and concluded that Polish citizens were executed in Katyn in 1941 by German occupation forces.
— And in fact? ..
— And in fact — the Germans. April 13, 1943 Goebbels declared that the body found near Smolensk 12 thousand Polish officers. In other words, talk about these matters began to Goebbels.
— As the bodies were found? There was a war, there were fights …
— Frame the locals for no to this at the end of March 1943 told the German field gendarmerie patrol that 3 years back they heard gunshots at Katyn and clicks. But, forgive me, you never know when something who heard …
— Especially since the war …
— But the Germans for some reason suddenly start digging immediately. Do not generally seek out the grave anywhere, and the "dot" reveal the grave!
— And where is that?
— And it happens west of Smolensk, between the stations of Katyn and Nest. The local inhabitants of this place is not called Katyn and Goat Mountain. This is a small piece of land between the railroad and the highway that goes from Moscow to Minsk … And the Germans, as if they have any special mine detectors or special appliances were, they say: We found the corpses of 12 thousand Poles!
— As it has been confirmed — with photographic documents, examinations?
— The Germans offered the Polish reddish Cross to take part in the exhumation and post-mortem examination. And the Poles, who were Germans, it is gratifying agreed. But the International Reddish Cross refused. And the Germans managed to encourage professionals only people from the occupied countries — Hungary, Romania, Finland. In other words puppets.
Shot in the back of the victim was the beloved reception Nazi executioners …
— So there was a war, and the Germans picked up its expert team?
— Yes, the Germans opened the graves exhumed least thousands of corpses. And it declared 12 tyschah!
— And why specifically in April 1943, here is the deal come about?
— First, in February 1943 ended in the Battle of Stalingrad. Taken prisoner by the 6th Army Paulus, plus — 4th Tank. And at the same time we pitched and captured 3rd and 4th Romanian Army and another Italian. Also on the Voronezh Front was a Hungarian army. All of it was broken. In Germany, the government announced mourning. Such defeat of Germany never in the history of the war did not know, the first time such a tragedy …
— In other words, "Katyn Massacre" was like a return stroke of German propaganda?
— It was a double move. Since the Berlin understood that, as will the liberation of our country, we will open the nastiness and brutality of the Nazi invaders. In Berlin, did not rule out that they would surrender to the Germans, Italians, Romanians. Here's a clever Goebbels and invents this "genius" plan: to incite the people to the Russian. Including Poles. Like, you, Poles, give up, and you have these "Jewish commissars" here be shot, shot as your home town.
— But it's all tied to the "Katyn affair"?
— And that's it. Our Reddish Army enters vacated by Belarusian and Ukrainian lands and at the same time takes into captivity 130 thousand soldiers of the Polish Army.
But what happens next? Here, on the orders of Beria we release 85 thousand Poles in the main rank and file.
Now the Poles put us in the guilt of what we shot the remaining 45 thousand 20 thousand … But if we blame the massacre of thousands of Poles 20, then where did the time 75000th army of General Anders, where did the 1st division named after Kosciuszko? Rose from their graves, these guys or what?
They say WHAT THE ARCHIVES?
— When I was rummaging in the archival documents on Katyn, and then beheld the letter Beria to Stalin, in what is written about the subsequent: "Dear Comrade Stalin, remained in the rear of an unlimited number of Poles. This vicious enemies, these are people who can not stand the Soviet regime. " And there flickered, I remember, a figure in the region of 14 thousand …
— Quite right. Let us look at this document, which Many dispute … It's a fake copy. Why? This sheet of paper. You are writing as a resolution reading? Diagonally from the bottom up. On the front of this document. If people turned up page down and signed. This is the first that is in plain sight for those who started learning the document. I have for many years kept in the hands of a paper written by Beria and sent to the Politburo. They are all the notes Beria, were written in a lovely, so called ivory paper (there was such a very thick, with a yellow tinge, smooth), and in the upper left corner of the stamp was: People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of the USSR Beria. This paper stamp: People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs. In other words, the paper set up for correspondence
between the departments. This is not a personal form Beria. So here in this paper is one feature. I spent more than 20 years in the archives of such documents. They were written on one page, a maximum of one page and the third part. Since no one wanted to read an enormous
ITATION longish paper. So here I go again I wish to say that the document, which is the main thing. He is already on 4 pages! Moreover, there is another trick. These documents were missing number and last name. To typist did not know anything. And then Beria, before signing, something added by hand.
— Here, too, there are no such "essential" elements of Beria's office?
— That's why I say, the main document, because of which we take the blame, was not recognized by the Supreme Tribunal of the Russian Federation as the authentic!
One of the declassified archival documents: Beria to Stalin has to do with the Poles who found themselves in the camps.
GUNS AND BULLETS
— Now the next time. Here's looking at. I invite you to become one moment Beria.
— Thank you, but I can hardly "get into character" …
— Imagine that you have permission to shoot Stalin's Polish prisoners of war. They are contained in the 3 camps. How are you going to shoot them — on-site or somewhere're lucky?
— If I was Beria, naturally, had introduced them somewhere deeper in the forest. Away from the eyes of men …
— And away to the east. Or in place, so as not to load the steel road. Why then do we have carried these prisoners to the West and was shot in the place which is called Katyn? For you do not think it's very weird?
— As you read this oddity?
— And that, most likely, the Germans shot, then already taken care of that, in order to hide his sin.
And here also. Where our enkavedeshniki took German Walter and German bullets, so on the German as the standard to shoot prisoners in the head?
— A confirmed that shots were fired from Walther?
— Naturally! From the outset.
— But some experts they say that some armed detachments of the NKVD was also the German guns.
— You can say whatever you want. In order to prove that we were armed with German-caliber pistols uncharacteristic us, please submit your documents for the purchase of guns and ammunition. Should be confirmed.
— And that, to this day they do not?
No. And, apparently, can not be. Next. His hands were bound captives cardboard twine. German. We then lined the ropes were not.
— And what makes the basic incrimination Poland until now the Russian Federation in connection with Katyn?
— That on the orders of our government have been shot 20 — 25 thousand Poles, the color of the Polish army and the intelligentsia.
— And we are quite all the charges of the Polish side recognized?
— Yes. And I would have filed a counter-claim them. For the destruction of the Red Army, trapped in Polish captivity in the 20 — 21's. Then the Poles, according to various sources, killed up to 60 thousand people … And it is no repentance, no apology, no-thing! As if so needed.
— And where do you see a way out of this situation?
— "Katyn" needs immediate real-judicial investigation, which will, as it should in the ordinary courts, the two sides: the prosecutor and the defender. And where would-independent examination of …
— You want international court?
— I wish a neutral and impartial trial. But we must not forget that in the 46th year ended Nuremberg trials, it addressed the issue of military sins. Item C — murder and fierce appeal of prisoners of war and other armed forces of countries with which Germany was at war. The prosecution confirmed. As of the 1st of the episodes there is episode 18 — Katyn Massacre. In September 1941, 11 thousand Polish officers, prisoners of war were killed in the Katyn forest near Smolensk.
— Who killed?
— Germans. This decision Nuremberg trials, which is not subject to revision.
— On this occasion, and I read as Polish historians — the documents prepared for the Nuremberg Trials Russian side …
— Russian Party is prepared, but incidentally was an international tribunal.
— Facts inspected?
— Naturally! With all of this even uttered that this case is so clear that the evidence does not ask for special and a huge number of eyewitnesses. The judges recognized the Nuremberg undeniable that the Germans did. Because now those who fells the blame for the Katyn massacre on the Russian Alliance, reviewing decisions of the Nuremberg process. As can be seen, tomorrow they can say anything … In the unlikely event Poles willingly or unwillingly will dance to the tune of Goebbels. It is worth recalling that the popular South American newspaper "New York Times", about a week after the announcement of Joseph Goebbels, said that Polish and Russian Hitler successfully bleed off. But the strshnoe that Goebbels wrote in his diary April 17, 1943. Let me read: "Katyn" is a colossal political bomb, which in certain conditions will cause more than one shock wave. And we use it according to the rules of art. Those 10 — 12 thousand Polish officers who have just paid their lives for the present, it may be a sin, because they were warmongers, still serve us in order to open the eyes of the peoples of Europe to Bolshevism. "
— How do you realize?
— I know so, Goebbels and continues to "open eyes" Poles. Strasbourg and the European Parliament are looking at our history in the eyes of Goebbels.
— Are all the hidden materials on Katyn in Russia Revealed?
— It is not clear. On that material and hidden thing about them no one knows.
— But in order to have reconciled the two majestic neighbor, perhaps, should have to go on is to remove the secrecy of the Katyn disaster?
— Naturally! And to give these materials are not Poles, and at first our scientists. And since we Volkogonova General (former chief ideologist of Russian army. — VB) only and are passionate about the export of our valuable archives. And this is our history, our all!
And you direct attention, because no matter how much they say about Katyn, that the affair started in the 43 th year, no one remembers that we are also told, in the same 43-m, after a certain number of days, there was a message Sovinformburo, then a statement of our Commissar and Minister of Foreign Affairs Molotov foreign journalists. After all, he clarified the situation with the same Polish army. With all this, he could not fool anyone with the figures because, once the Polish army withdrew to the west, though what would it caught a heresy on, call it even for the 1st fighter more or less. Then, in the 44th, after the liberation of Smolensk, as I read, a special commission headed by Colonel-General Burdenko was investigating. No writer Alexei Tolstoy, not an academician Tarle, they are not involved in the exhumation and pathological-anatomical research work — were experts at this!
But there is in fact again repeated the same story, which I stumbled. If anyone had read Solzhenitsyn knows, can not be a prisoner in the camp of the NKVD, even for prisoners, though for whom, documents, orders and correspondence. All were seized. And for some reason always Katyn Germans found in the main documents, letters, services, facilities. The graves. With all of this from time to time, they thought so: a corpse — edinichka, opened the victim. No corpse, but on documents — even e
dinichka. So scored higher than 900 killed.
— And yet, what do you consider the most important problem of the Katyn disaster?
— Counting the number of Tipo Polish officers executed by us. The numbers do not add up.
— Yuri, where at the moment there are documents on Katyn?
— They are a 2-archives. Presidential Archives and the Central Archives of the Federal Security Service, the KGB past, the past of the NKVD. Here's where you need to work.
Yuri Zhukov. Doctor of Historical Sciences
Born in 1938 in Krasnogorsk near Moscow. Educated at the Moscow State University and the Historical Archives Institute. He worked at the Municipal Museum of History, the Agency "Novosti", the Institute of History of the USSR. Creator of many monographs and books on the history of the country and its political leaders. Now — the leading researcher of the Institute of Russian History of the Russian Academy.