Dr. John Mack (John E. Mack), an American psychiatrist, a professor at Harvard Medical School, said in an interview with the French Institute of Research for an extraordinary experience (Institut de Recherche sur les Experiences Extraordinaires, INREES) on the phenomenon of "alien abduction."
Interview of Dr. John Mack for the Institute for the Study of extraordinary experience (INREES)
On the work of the psychiatrist Stanislav Grof
My interest in this work came from my teacher, Stanislav Grof, a Czech psychoanalyst, who, in the late 50s, he began to experiment with (drugs) LSD and found that our understanding of the structure of the mind is very limited and that the disclosure of consciousness detectable levels of consciousness and being much more profound than those that apply to everyday reality, and which he calls the transpersonal state. This is a state where consciousness is not tied to the body. Body experience would be the state. When a person is no longer limited by this body. When holotropic breathing — a method that has come out of his LSD research — often used deep breathing, expressive music, a person can achieve extraordinary states of consciousness, but without the drug. It's like LSD but without the LSD.
So, in my experience, which I first experienced in Grof doing breathing exercises, I found, to my surprise, my mind has changed from my time myself, to being the father of Russian in the 16th century, whose four-year-old son was beheaded Mongols. It was not a fantasy. It was something that I bukalno was moved to the state, which can be called a past life, transpersonal experience, when the mind travels through time. Was this person I do not know, it's not a big deal, but the experience was very strong and very real. So much so that it made me more understanding and sympathy to Russian doctors that I was at the time. It was a time when we are still guided nuclear weapons at each other and so on. It was a very strong example of transpersonal experiences.
At one point, near the end of my studies at the Grof, he gave me an article written by Kif Thompson, which was the head of the extraordinary spiritual experiences and it said the meetings with UFOs Grof classified as extraordinary spiritual experiences. I read this article and I did not stop to ask — since it was Jung's interpretation of the UFO phenomenon — I did not stop to ask, well … but does it really? What do I mean by the fact it was at that time quite literally — if UFOs are real and whether or not people have seen aliens and so on in the same vein. I. .. I think that if you ask a question rather aggressively, then the universe goes to meet and provides information relevant to this issue. Because in a month or two of one of the people in the group in which I was taught this method … a woman named Blanche, a psychologist, asked if I would like to meet with Bud Hopkins. I asked: Who is he? She said that he is an artist from New York who studies the people who have had experiences where they were taken by aliens in spaceships. And I thought it was absolute madness. Despite the fact that I looked quite openly at all, having a transpersonal experience in Grof, it was too much for me. But she said no, it's all very real and that I should go to him. Her own was the case, and it was presented to Hopkins in connection with this case. I went to see him, he told me about the phenomenon. Next time, with him there were a few … And I was struck by the fact that it was a very normal, ordinary people, except for the fact that they had such an extraordinary experience. For me, it was shocking.
Now … the fact that I took it seriously — and I felt that it was a monumentally important — it had to do with the fact that I had already been impregnated transpersonal experiences through classes on Grof.
So, even though what I thought it was impossible, crazy, I still wanted to know more. When I started to meet people, then they started coming to me in Boston, Cambridge. Some sent Hopkins, then others began to find my own. I. .. I … I do not remember if I told this before … I began to assess them, they did not suffer from any mental illness. And there was no indication that it comes from the media. In what they said, there were too many specific details, clearly defined, repetitive. Nothing like this in the media did not yet exist. It was something that happened as a real event that happened to them. And the emotions were very intense. And also, what they described .., each person is described in more less the same. But they did not know each other, do not have any benefit from it, have been alarmed by this, did not want all this to be true. In particular, would be happy if I gave them a certain pill that would cure them or assured to them that it was a dream. They could not sleep if such things happened. Once I heard of 50-60 people, I was pretty convinced that this was something truly mysterious and real. And I had to think about that, if it is real, what is all this? That's how I started.
Each mental state has its own specific issues. Such as schizophrenia, are not just have one an idea that is strange. All of their behavior … they tend to be closed, not very clearly expressed, there are other things in which they believe there is a whole … Paranoid schizophrenia when they have a whole system of beliefs that they are being persecuted for life, they are usually quite convinced that their ideas are the right ones, and they try to convince you of something. But these people are completely different. They are well aware that this is contrary to what other people tend to believe. They are not what they believe in it, but just have a problematic experience for them. They do not have any fixed ideas about the persecution. And the majority of healthy people. They have a job, family, good relations. In psychosis, schizophrenia, and more and more criteria related to the quality of human relations to others. And these people are very good. So there's nothing like psychosis. Except perhaps the fact that they have ideas about what should not be there, according to the prevailing ideology. And if you want to call a psychosis that is at odds with the generally accepted worldview, anyone who … This is what the Soviet system tried to do for a while. If someone was a dissident, — right? — They said that did not follow the dominant dissident Marxist philosophy and planted it in a psychiatric hospital. If we assume psychosis is when someone has a point of view that is different from the dominant paradigm — that we, as a society, to some degree, and do — well .. but in a free society, there is no indication that these people are not normal .
This is not a dream
Another category — dreams. Well … Many people, as you know, waking from sleep, the morning … when you had a dream and you wake up, you know it, it was a dream. But sometimes experienced had this experience even before they went to bed. They do not sleep. Other people were even awake happening. And when they say to you in the morning, they said that they were awakened by something, and when it happened, they were in the waking state. Also, it may not occur at night. At night, you can still be confused with sleep. But there will not be any confusion, if a child was in the school yard, and there was light … He, you know, disappeared for a few hours. This is rare, but there are such cases. And many people were taken from their cars as they drove from the top and there was light, and so on … So this is … obviously not just something to do with the night time of the day, what makes people think that it's like a dream.
Hallucinations are some sort of mental illness such as schizophrenia, or when someone uses drugs and has hallucinations. But hallucinations usually have a certain look. You hear a voice or see an animal or something else that is actually not. But hallucinations do not have a complex, well-defined narrative, a story that has a beginning, continuation, termination. Delirium may, but is not a hallucination. And I'll just say, why is it not nonsense. But the man in the car, or when sleeping .. has light beings come, he feels paralyzed, he is hired, transferred to the ship, there's something going on, there may be other people, he has a telepathic contact with aliens, taking some samples — there is a complex set of events, which is repeated from person to person, with some differences. A hallucination — this is a personal thing. You can argue that it is — mass hallucinations. But mass hallucinations occur when people are part of a society or have a common experience, where everyone has the same idea, because they communicate with each other. But these people — from all over the world and have no contact with each other. And all have the same … It's not like a mass hallucination.
Fantasy … well … Again — this is very personal fantasy phenomenon. You have a certain set of ideas, predstavlyash something … It's your imagination. It will not be ten thousand, a hundred thousand people who have the same fantasy. You understand. By definition, the specific fantasy associated with a specific person at a specific time.
But the most important thing, from my point of view — not from a general point of view, but from my diagnostic point of view — is that they describe the experience, or the events, as the people who tell the story of what really happened to them . When you talk to mentally ill, telling something that is delusional illusions, you feel that this is not happening. I can say .. ie I know that something is not what people want me to believe he was scared, or it distorts reality in some way. But there is nothing like it. Here, people of sound mind, basically. Tell me about something that is very … they know that I can … think that they are crazy, they are a little unsure of telling me about it, they are full of doubt and uncertainty .. and at the same time, they describe something very real, — intense light, something is wrong with their body .. . Very quality of how they talk about it, just as people have experienced something, talk about what happened to them.
With all of the patients I work the same way. What do I do first is ask what brings you here … And they say, my therapist said that I feel what you write, or speak. Or … for example, that all my life, my parents said, also in the period of childhood that certain events were only dreams … Ie I take into account the history, not only the experience of symptoms or if you like, what makes them think that they belong to this category of people, but also all about themselves — their lives, what their relationships with people, work, personal life, that is, what do health professionals in any assessment. And then I go back to their experience, the full details. This usually takes about an hour and a half. And then, depending on the situation, I either ask them to come at another time, to continue face to face, can bring a family to check the readings that people do not tend to think of history and that they can be trusted. And then a lot of memories about experienced pop up in the minds of their own. But some somewhere deep and difficult to remember. They see this … light over the lake and it is very significant and important, and then … they feel that something happened, but not quite sure what. And then I spend relaxation — what people call hypnosis. I'm doing an exercise in relaxation, sometimes called regression. And quite often, these events remember with great detail. Not just because of the hypnosis, but hypnosis as it reveals more details of what I've heard. He often allows a person to express some emotions that lie in the subconscious, and also to get a clearer picture of what seems to happen. And this first session of hypnosis is usually a real shock for someone like your talk last night. Because the details that emerge are so powerful and so certain that people no longer live in denial, which he was. The great advantage of the relaxation in the fact that the emotions that come up are so intense, so vivid and undeniably linked to something real that … if you are in the room when it happens, not only me, but every person I asked, coming out with the words: I do not know … something is really wrong, I can not explain, and so on.
I. .. As I said, I have had hundreds of similar cases. And how science works — reveals a recurring scenario that has some stability. Not all cases are the same. Some of the more traumatic, others are more spiritual direction, others are more connected to the environment, have apocalyptic imagery. But the basic story is repeated here — as I see it after a few hundred cases — and in the U.S. and in other countries. All this blends into the overall picture that has a strong … form of truth.
Sometimes a person continues to come with some we become friends and meet every year. They tend to integrate their experiences in life, and the experience itself diminish, active experience. If something happens they come again. I have the impression that the experience like just taking a spaceship now occur less frequently. What do experiences become more slender, like a ball of light that has the information, or as a spiritual revelation, or the people are … as a teacher, as a result of their experience.
As part of our culture such phenomena simply not possible. So what! Why should I pay attention to the culture, which is already failing. We have to support its assumptions about being nothing more than its military doctrine, or position in relation to the environment, or in relation to the economy, or in relation to any other aspect of our society, which is clearly falling apart. And the only thing that remains — is the notion of being, which is the cause of all other problems. But this phenomenon does, it begins to attack what is the real problem, that is, limited view of existence. And he tells us that reality is not only what we think about it. And out of this comes a huge impact, ie that we live in a universe that is not so limited but is more abundant, and that if we worry about the Earth and each other, with love, there likely will be enough for everyone. And it changes the very principles of a corporation would behave as they would themselves country, the Army, and we would not destroy the Earth, we would live together, share a worried sacredness of reality, the sacredness of nature. A breakdown for the commercial interests would be considered sacrilege.
All of this phenomenon, it is, in a sense, the last nail in the coffin of our understanding of the world. Everything else fails — fail because failure of our representation of the world. And now, the very idea of the world is failing.
So what? Idea of what is possible based on the outlook. It's all relative. Culture decides what is real. What is real for the culture may be quite different from what is the reality for the American Indians, or reality for Tibetan Buddhists, or reality for Hawaiian Kahuna and more. We have one set of ideas about what is real. Very limited. And becoming more and more limited, as are the century. As the poet Rilke, that feeling by which we can know the spiritual world, atrophied. Because we do not have the structure in our ability to experience for greater knowledge of reality. It's like we've lost a sense of themselves, through which could know beyond this limited physical horizon. So now I have no respect for the dominant view of the world today, because it is arbitrary. It was formed at a specific time to solve specific problems. This particular view of the world that we call scientific materialism, which is now the dominant ideology, formed to address specific issues at specific times. The problem was that the church has dominated the thinking and if someone, such as Galileo said, there is something about the Moon and Jupiter, supporting Copernicus that the Earth is not the center of the universe, when the church is trying to make a man the center of the universe, ie it was the tyranny of ideas at the time. And science has become a way to document time constraints limited, while the prevailing theological outlook. Science then became, material science, then became the undermining, if you want to look at old things. And so gradually, starting from the 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries, the spiritual, more religious outlook was yielding to scientific. But they seem to co-exist, it was, for a while, as if the idea that there is a spiritual world that the church and psychologists have known that. Ie Scientists concerned only the material world. But gradually, from 16 th to the 20 th century, all spiritual knowledge was sidelined and the scientific way of knowing the only way of knowing. And the view of being more and more narrowed, as a way of knowledge becomes more and more limited. Figuratively speaking, the spiritual child splashed with religious water.
Because I became less and less respect for the dominant ideology, because I began to understand that first of all, from a clinical point of view, the world just does not hold water. These people … I believe patients more than I believe our world. They are much more convincing. I would have had no reason to believe our world, but I have been indoctrinated to believe him with ranego childhood. But once I realized that this is just programming my thinking, and it was not based on any factual knowledge, but the so-called "laws" that are just a part of the scientific materialist worldview, I started to lose in this respect. Not because this is no place — science has its place in the development of drugs and weapons, and so on — but in the sense of the ability to provide good materialist worldview life support life on Earth, to explain phenomena such as out of body experience during clinical death, alien abduction … it just does not work. This world view is not able to explain any … It deals with a few. This is a worldview that would have to take care of … More and more I lose respect for this world-view, which was not able to solve any of these … not to decide … this is not quite the right word … it can not cope with it all. In the 14th century the Black Death, the plague was held across Europe and killed a third of the population and the church had to offer. And the Black Death, which appeared again, even in the time of Galileo, — there is information about the plague in his time — it was clear that the old way, the way the church was inadequate when dealing with the realities of the material world and the disease — one of them. But now we have other problems. Not that we have to cure all diseases, but at least we know what is good for science, in that sense. But now we have a whole set of problems. Relationships of groups of people, nuclear weapons, anomalies … all kinds of anomalies that are inexplicable … economic issues, issues of justice — none of which are not considered scientific materialist world outlook, which … more like a shell of the world, if you think this is not a world at all. Bring knowledge of reality to a purely material world … but how about the world of emotions, the spiritual world, the world of subatomic … the quantum world. Quantum physics, as you have heard at conferences, quantum mechanics itself undermines the dominant idea of the materialistic world. Because if you look at subatomic reality, there is nothing, there is no material world — only the possibility and probability. Waves … and … particles, which are non-local and not bound by material constraints. New discoveries in physics, if they seriously consider simply undermine the dominant ideology, as a phenomenon of which I speak.
When you're dealing with people who come from prejudice and standing behind the dominant ideology, and have not done a preliminary study, in person, the meaning of the discussion with them? And know how to deal with the heavy artillery — the dominant ideology. They have more divisions than me, right? Because with my tools … I can not win against military attacks The sides of the dominant ideology. I can only work when there is a certain openness of mind, consciousness, you know?
Translation Sergei Shpakovsky
Category: UFOs and aliens