Konstantin Melnik-Botkin, 84-year-old legend of the international intelligence coordinator of the intelligence services of France at the time of de Gaulle, in an interview "Voice of Russia, "said that in his career he was very disturbed Russian mentality, and that is why Russia should not follow the example of the West
32 years old, during the reign of Charles de Golyaya, Miller led the structure in charge of all intelligence agencies of France, including exploration. Miller also has a key role in ending the Algerian War and the beginning of the process of decolonization, respectively. Later, he was one of the major analysts and shadow leaders of the French public power system, as well as U.S. government corporations. Miller worked closely with the Vatican.
In an interview with "
— Russia in the West, hate, do not understand and do not want to understand! When you read French newspapers and magazines, they always criticize Russia, criticized the system … This is where the last number is very well-known magazine "Internationale politician," where the whole article against Putin.
In France and in the West, people forget that Russia suffered terribly, that still was a revolution, civil war, many killed, emigration, the victims of repression under Lenin, when Stalin — 25 million, the Second World War. And when communism collapsed, Russia has not helped anybody and does not help. All is forgotten in France. They continue to view Russia as during the Cold War. This is nonsense!
France hates Russia, but it is understandable because their beloved Russia defeated Napoleon. Then Khrushchev still did not want to give away money that French banks had lent more tsarist regime (it is a state loan for the construction of railways, the vast majority of which are built at the expense of the French population. Lenin's government did not recognize the debt, which led to a strong dislike of the new Communist power on the part of the French population, which, in fact, been robbed. Yeltsin's Russian debt partially recognized and negotiated the settlement at least the nominal value). And then there was that French intellectuals polls were former communists and Maoists. And they still have the impression that Russia fuck up their communist ideals. The situation is difficult for Russia to France to reverse. Not to mention about America, which also hates Russia. The only country that behaves decently — it's still Germany. And the other …
— Absolutely. And Putin's ties with Germany are very clear, and now there is an attempt to build a relationship with France. But it is very hard, because Francois Hollande has no policy towards Russia. Sarkozy was pro-American president.
— He ruined France, and I fear that Hollande worse. In addition to Germany, all of the West has failed. I am very pessimistic about the future of Europe. But they love themselves and believe that right and that everything is fine. Especially as always to blame Russia.
— You wrote about Islam and about the French at the time were trying to cope with the Muslims and the threat posed by them in the era of the Algerian War. You — the type of person who helped France out of the Algerian conflict … How did you manage to reach such heights in your career?
— As it happens, because I'm Russian. I had a great career, I worked Sovietologist analyst. He was familiar with the Jesuit Order of the Vatican that formed the organization "Rusikum" which studied communism ("Rusikum" is the main Vatican's intelligence is so successful in gathering information that, according to certain sources, the information he buys even the CIA).
I am the only person in the West, which at such a young age has reached such heights in the field of intelligence and analytics. For example, analyzing the Soviet public sources, including the newspaper "Pravda", I formed a prediction that Khrushchev, Stalin's successor will be: the fact that the newspaper reports he received much more attention than Malenkov and Beria.
My next destination was the post of representative of the largest American organization "Rand Corporation" (note: many analysts believe RandCorp. Part of the semi-official analytical structure of the CIA in Europe, has been collecting information on Americans to secure the presence of the European space). I was ready to go to America. But I had a political career, and also in France, so when de Gaulle came to power and his prime minister Michel Debre, with whom I was friends, asked me about the profile help, I reacted like a silly Russian people. Brought up, you see, was "for the king, for the motherland, for the faith." So I decided to take the power to end this terrible Algerian war and restore France to its greatness prescription General. At the same time, to the Gaullists did not regard myself, staying for them to outsiders. Therefore, once the war was over, they looked at me like I was a Russian, for example, as a member of the Foreign Legion: in the sense that if the war is over, it means that he does not need anyone else.
So, while my official career came to an end, and we had to start a new life of the writer and publisher. Nevertheless, I continued to be interested in exploration all the time, however, as Russia.
In 1972, when Brezhnev began talks with the West on the issue of delimitation of the spheres, the proposal met with Leonid Il'cha widespread backlash. I'm a lawyer with the Vatican, on the contrary, explained that the only way to destroy the communist system — is to formulate a third application to the basic package, passed Brezhnev.
In his memoirs, Gorbachev writes that this was the beginning of the failure of the communist system: Russia could not agree with the introduction of the international practice of the concept of "human rights", even more so with the establishment of the regime of free movement of people and spiritual values. There was an absolute contradiction with the local law enforcement norm. In order to gain an understanding of politics, I had to fight for it. It took me 3 years to the West realized that the only way to build a new Russia is the signing of the so-called third basket of Helsinki.
In other words, I once again behaved like a typical Russian-disinterested: it is no benefit from this case for myself I did not draw or France or America. On the other hand, looked at me, as a man of the left, that is sympathetic to communism.
From this followed by two or three software output, of which I am stuck. First, anticipate that Khrushchev would be the heir of Stalin. Second, to help de Gaulle not only get out of the Algerian war, but also to avoid a civil war in France, which was also included in my area of responsibility. I note that the situation was terrible. At that time, under my were all the police forces of the country, or, as you call them, the enforcement agencies.
As you know, the operation was a success: the civil war has not begun. At the heart of my motives lying Russian line: I remember the horrors of the 17th year of the murder of my grandfather, Dr. Eugene S. Botkin (ES Botkin was shot by members of the royal family in the Ipatiev house). I hate anarchy and revolution.
Now about communism. My approach to it was very interesting. In some ways it is the same with the line of the Vatic
an. I believed that Communism — an ideology similar to Nazism, but the real new religion, so deal with it to spiritual forces. Consistent with this line and I built my whole life. But there were no special favors from France for this is not received. In turn, I absolutely do not care, because I feel a Russian man, and not a Frenchman.
I was born in France, but began to speak French, but when I was 7 years old. Up to 20 years living in the Russian media, which speak only in Russian. So I think in Russian and in French began to think only when he went to the Academy of Political Science. I graduated its first in her class, which allowed me to make a career. Of course, this is something career was impossible, because in those days — especially after the war — France was deeply communist country. For example, at the Academy of Political Science, History of Russia until the 17th of the year has not been studied. Studied exclusively political economy and socialist Marxism. Therefore, I, White Russians, looked askance. My real career began in America, but then I gave up everything to protect France and de Gaulle, that is typically done in Russian: it is very silly. Just like Saltykov-Shchedrin.
— You are not able to reach the greatest heights, because he never renounced his Russian origin. We read it in your book: You have always been true to themselves and did not want to alter his name in the French style … (see the book by K. Miller "Modern intelligence and espionage," and the same author's "Spying in French") .
— It is. But my main muse was always intelligence. First, the intelligence had no relationship to the communist ideology, and second, it provides an opportunity to understand the world.
I always wanted to understand why such a great power as Russian empire, died so quickly and so deeply failed. That is why the last 10 years, I am still interested in exploration. After that, my work, which you mentioned, it was time of my first meetings with Markus Wolf (for 34 years led the Wolf intelligence GDR), General Kondrashov, senior representatives of the CIA …
The film was shot. At the first meeting of the producer asked me, "What do you want?" I replied that I wish to meet with the KGB, with whom I had once fought. I mean, First Department, and not the second central board. Imagine my shock! In the First Chief Directorate of the wonderful people I found who had the scale of thinking, which is comparable with the teachers of French universities! People are absolutely honest, that did not do anything vulgar! They only studied the world, even taking advantage of recruiting agents sympathetic to communism!
One of the galaxy believe Shebarshin. I can not worry about it. I called him every week, we often met and drank tea and ate dinner with him. So his suicide was a big blow for me. Shebarshin was one of the most brilliant intelligence officers I have ever met. I think it was the level of Markus Wolf, with whom I was friends, too.
So, for 10 years I was friends with people from the former First Chief Directorate of the KGB, and read all the books they have so kindly sent me. Maybe that's why I wrote another book about a real Russian intelligence. Have you read it in Russian translation, which is not very good.
In my book says that the beginning of this Russian intelligence marked the emergence of communist ideology. In the West, exploration began when World War II broke out. The English behaved very cleverly. French intelligence also acted correctly in relation to the Germans. Guerrilla warfare was not, of course, a significant phenomenon, but intelligence really worked well. And then the Cold War, and came into the arena razvedvoyny America.
Frankly, the last 10 years of my contacts with representatives of the Russian intelligence helped me a lot to write a book about the shortcomings of the last French system of data collection (ie the book "Spying in French"). When I was shown the KGB museum, I wrote in the Golden Book of visitors: "The best intelligence in the world."
The secret lies in the fact that the Russian people love relationships with other people and a lively interest in them. In addition, the KGB Academy offers its students a very interesting and in some ways even a wonderful education. The very same Russian man has a specific spirit: he is interested in other countries. A Frenchman only interested in himself. Paris so nice to manage the fight against terrorism, as in this case we are talking about self-defense. That's why they had such a wonderful exploration during the German occupation, and now there is progress in the fight against terrorism. But the knowledge of other countries, other people are not interested.
Today, French intelligence guided fantasies, including eating there and fantasy on present-day Russia: it includes concepts such as the relationship with Putin, as well as relations with the Putin.
It is hard to argue that in some French intelligence analysis includes the right conclusions: for example, the presence in Russia of corruption and an underdeveloped economy. At the 4th and 3rd Republics in France corruption at all was because officials were remarkable. Therefore, when de Gaulle came to power, he was helped by those same officials, corruption has not occurred, which in turn has allowed to develop the economy of the country.
Nevertheless, it should be noted that economic growth has begun to de Gaulle, that is, during the 4th Republic. I myself together with the Russian group (meaning a significant part of the French leaders who came out of prison emigres) in this process was directly involved.
Due to the presence of a competent team of associates in government positions we managed to build a strong economy of mixed public-private type. I think the 4th Republic has saved itself from communism, because she came up with an economic model of a stronger and more attractive than the communist system. At the time, the danger of communism was as strong as ever: we must not forget that 37% of French people voted for this party. All defended Stalin, but thanks to the French socialists and radical French Socialists — the way, I was just a radical-socialist — we still have raised the country and gave de Gaulle to end the Algerian war.
Now, about Russia. I often say that Putin has a policy of de Gaulle, because after all when de Gaulle was not a free press, and a monopoly on TV was in the hands of the state. In addition, all of Putin's theory similar to the theory of de Gaulle. But, unfortunately, de Gaulle was in the hands of a very strong country, he messed up and finished off her Mitterrand. Now we are waiting for the absolute failure of the new socialist.
This will, of course, economic failure, because the Frenchman is by nature an individualist and is only interested in themselves. He will ask for more from the government: more pensions, higher wages. And I fear that France comes to suicide, like Greece. And to criticize Putin that he does not go to the West — is a complete nonsense, because you have to build something new in Russia, but it is difficult because there is no good government officials or political leaders.
In other words, the unfortunate Putin stands alone. If you look closely, the environment it is very interesting. There's even come across people Medvedev scale, but there is no body of officials and political leaders! And the country, we still talked about in the beginning of our conversation, badly hit because of the revolution, because of emigration. The only person, paradoxically, who built Russia — it's still there now Stalin.I fashion criticize Stalin, saying that the price was terrible, the peasants were killed and 700,000 were shot … But the country-that he built! As Churchill said, it was a country that had lived in the 16th century, and left it with nuclear weapons. It's
Interestingly, the Russian adored de Gaulle. He always thought that to build Europe without Russia is impossible. It was his famous phrase, such as "From the Atlantic to the Urals"! But de Gaulle spoke badly about controlling Russia. For example, he liked to add, "When fail system (in Russian) — is undignified, unintelligent and ineffective!" De Gaulle tried to talk about it with Khrushchev when he invited him to Paris. The general said that after the death of Stalin should immediately start any alteration, although at that time the word had not yet exist. What you need to change the style of government. In response to Khrushchev acted like a stupid man. But de Gaulle showed him factories, all the wonderful things that exist in France, and which, I am afraid not stand up in the face of the current crisis. Khrushchev replied only: "And here in the Soviet Union will be even better!" I am a witness to all this, because it worked with the Prime Minister, when France took Khrushchev. In short, for us it was a terrible disappointment. Khrushchev did not want to understand that a mixed economy is more efficient than the state model.
— You write in the book "Spying in French," the French intelligence were not effective enough and that, with the exception of Georges Pak, whom you personally know with the exception of a small fish, the French have not been able to act effectively. But Jacques Sapir, Ellen Carrère d'Encausse, your contemporaries and colleagues, saying that the French have historically had a strong exploration in Africa with a superbly well-functioning system. You led the whole thing. You think the view is justified?
— I see one thing: sorry to say, but France did not wage the Cold War in the field of intelligence. She has held, as they say in Russia, it is absolutely neutral pozitsiyu.Ya think they just have not had the opportunity, as in the state to afford it. The French were not interested in anything other than the protection of France against communism or against agents like Georges Paku. But they were not smart policy on the Russian front, because there was not enough money, no help MFA, there was support from the state.
In Africa, there was a completely different situation. Here, from my point of view, it is not a question of intelligence, but rather, about the policy influence. Still, de Gaulle was a very strange man and his loss in Algeria caused great sadness that indirectly caused the breakdown in our relationship with him.
He wanted to preserve French influence in Africa. But this exploration in Africa was not. It was the policy of influence, where the president had some African countries, for example, an adviser person including Head of the French residency. For me it is not intelligence. Policy influence — it's a completely different thing. She did not have to go through the security services. It has to go through diplomacy, economic aid and the impact on the local education system. But we can say that de Gaulle in Africa used a special service for the calculation of the possibility of a new wave of colonization. Albeit in a different form. The result we see today: it is not brilliant — Africa in a terrible state. Economic development does not take place. All the money went to France after the big oil companies. Guided by their own belief system, that is, the so-called Russian my stupidity, I think that any country has the right to exploit or despise the other. Well, something like today despise the French Rossiyu.Strany strong need to help others become too strong, rich and developed.
In this area, the right has been the policy of the Americans after the Second World War. I am a witness. But after the First World France waged against Germany a terrible policy. And this policy has led to National Socialism.
But after the Second World War, people like Foster Dulles, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the United States, or of his brother Allen Dulles, began a policy that was working the Marshall Plan. They, of course, pursued their own interests. Yet Americans then helped France to build an economically powerful country.
At present American policy is overturned: they are only interested in power, the military conquest. I wrote an article in the Russian magazine since September 11, that America needs to go back to their old ideals and help the Arab countries and the Middle East to build a new economy, engage in education of the local population, to offer long-term investment projects. It's time to do it was to start, instead of fighting! As well behaved and the CIA with his Guantanamo camp, killing Muslims or their kidnapping. It's a horrible, bad policy, which is aimed towards anarchy and disturbance of countries in which it is conducted. In Western Europe, the Americans used to be a clever politician.
Speaking of Russia, I am still upset that Putin and his staff spend enough effort to build a new economy, new roads, stop corruption. Apparently, these problems — it is the price the country pays for the 17th year. So much loss of intellectuals during the Second World War, because the best people have been killed! How now hard! All unhappiness Russia begins in the 17th year.
I'll tell you a little anecdote. Now the man has died, and I can tell you. The first time I met Shebarshin, it was at the press conference SVR. And here is a man, and I'm from photographs immediately recognize Shebarshin. He turns to me and says, "Konstantin" That is, when he saw me for the first time, he immediately recognized me. A Shebarshin continues: "Yesterday I was reading a book of your great-grandfather Botkin of Russian-Turkish war in the 70s." Of course, I asked him why he was reading such books. He replied: "Because I read books to Russian misery." Of course, I asked him, when it starts Russian unhappiness. And — which is amazing for the KGB chief — he replied: "17th year." And it was so much misery in Russia this year, that just terrible.
But the only positive thing — it's the arrival of Stalin. A positive factor for me is still Putin's power. Because he reminds me of de Gaulle. But it does not have a strong civil society, there is a strong justice, there is no strong industry, except for oil and some other features. We need to understand Russia. Therefore, such a radio as your useful, because you explain what this country is and what its capabilities.
— Konstantin, you write about the fact that the Vatican was not and is not intelligence, though the Vatican itself is a strong organization.
— I knew Opus Dei. This is not a form of intelligence. Opus Dei — a tool of influence. Because they have a significant impact on people in a Catholic environment. They had a wonderful man, a lawyer of the Pope, with whom I worked, the maitre Vole (Opus Dei — the Vatican separate Order, whose members, being formally monks, the so-called numerary can support his alibi, even marrying and living a normal life. Guidelines Order, surnumerarii lead financial operations, as well as the collection of data around the world. They also owns a number of universities and, according to some cities — for example, Pampluna. Founder of the Order — Jose Maria Escriva. Order, there are about 60 years old and is accountable in its operations just in front of the Pope).
Exploration whether or not it is difficult to say … I think it's a specially-formed organization — such as Opus Dei or "Rusikum." But they do not have the handwriting of intelligence. They helped the Polish church soon after the war, sending funds and books — the Gospel and other items needed to serve the Liturgy. But for them it's a natural course of action. In the West there is a division between society and the state, the government and intelligence dealing with narrow professional activities. They are in the Vatican, the division of respo
nsibilities between the activities of the responsible of the "Opus Dei" master Vole and the activities of the Pope is not. In other words, everyone is doing everything at once. But technically, the Vatican — the most effective intelligence in the world.
— I have a question for you: do you believe in the union of France and Russia. And that in the future will form relationships, and France is reborn as de Gaulle used to say, "white Christian country", the former is always in the eyes of Russia, the center of world civilization?
— Now people in Russia in many ways like France and look at her as a role model, both on a "high" country. You know, France is a very strange country. This is a proud country. It has a very high opinion of himself. And the promotion of French is very effective. But look at France as an example, it is not necessary.
I remember one conversation with Shebarshin, before he shot himself. He said that there were difficult moments under Stalin, and when Khrushchev and Brezhnev — less difficult. But we have never seen (in France) a trite situation as it is now. Now France goes on to say that it is a wonderful country. But it is still a very vulgar country.
Nevertheless, I believe that the hatred of France to Russia should not have any impact on Russian policy. How not to have an impact on the policy of Russia U.S. anti-Russian policy.
Putin did not properly went to America because the Americans alive psychology Cold War. But in Russia the situation is very difficult. Too easy to criticize Putin.
Often wonder about the prospects of this country. I believe that the Russian people are strong and that he will be able to build their future. But I would be sorry if the little Russian civil society (note: civil society — in the understanding of French politics, intellectuals and politicians) decide that the West salvation. There is no salvation in the West will not. If you want to take a look at Greece, Spain, Italy, and tomorrow, and for France! Russians should understand that they ought to fight, as in the days of the Great Patriotic War! It is necessary that all the people rose to the business of the development, but it is difficult.