"Joining the unneededDEBATE FROM THE TIME hop off "
Managing Director of JSC "NPO" Saturn "is Ilya Fedorov
Deputy General Director of JSC "MC" UEC ".
And today our questions to Ilya Nikolayevich moved out of the plane
current practical problems to global issues: market trends
and the role of state-owned corporations in the development of industries.
— Ilya Nikolayevich, which now exist trends
tion on the world market, gas turbine, and what first-
prospects for Russian engine builders to enter this
market with new products and be there as equal partners,
— As I have repeatedly said, the state, region-
giving the two types of technologies and production — is
nuclear power, military and civilian, and gazoturbo
structure — is a civilized nation. In the long-
term (five years or more) market size motion
gateley military is small, and therefore large
money from the military engines, we do not expect. According to one
simple reason that such a large number of combat air-craft
Comrade, as it was during the confrontation between the USSR and
United States, when we and the Americans were at 5.5-6 thousand in-
ennyh aircraft, unfortunately, no longer. Threats, fortunately,
retreated, respectively, and will be less for the engine
these aircraft. Therefore, conceptually understood that need
engage in civil engines subjects for
first, to make a profit and, secondly, to
remain in the pool of the world’s leaders, who can de-
One promising civil order for us YaV-
wish to set up a fifth-generation engine program SaM146.
This engine "Saturn" is doing in conjunction with the French
by "Snecma" and other Western partners.
Another major theme is the program
PD-14. Is a leading developer of engine
Permian "Aircraft Engine". Creating a PD-14 — this is his-
On a challenge major rivals — CFM-56
("GE" and "Snecma") and PW1400 («Pratt
and Whitney "). That is a segment of the narrow-body self-
Letov type Boing737 and its further development and cross-
Airbus A320 family of aircraft (A319/A320/A321) with
It is necessary to make sure that this engine has taken place.
And I must say that we are now on the road con-
consolidation efforts Rybinsk and Permian areas.
Perm area consists mainly of PMZ and
"Aero Engines." "Saturn" is combined with the perspective
KB and production. The joint efforts of the designer-
Sgiach offices and production facilities UEC we must complete before-
vodka PD-14. If it does not, unfortunately, we
we are quite limited in their capabilities, in-
Moreover, as I have already said, fighting large engines
Sales prospects will not.
— Even with the export?
— What kind of export, you can tell when the planes lo-
VALID extremely expensive, and one plane solves the pro-
cottages that were previously solved group of planes, 5, or even
10 cars. Accordingly, the engine will be smaller, even
if it is two-engine car. Such amount of quenching
call, which currently is in "Salute" and UMPO
of course, will not. Because of the amount of air-craft
Comrade T-50, as it did with the machines of the Su-27, will be gone.
We do not expect such orders, and does not wait for anybody in the world. You
know what type of aircraft the F-22 "Raptor" a little bit. Order
these machines decreased several times, because it
rather expensive, and the real enemy is gone.
I admire Mikhail Pogosyan ASLANOVICH, in
the fact that he, understanding market forecasts, redirected
part of his KB to civilian aircraft. He is fine-
but aware of the fact that the great promise in the development of
combat aircraft, the company is not. There is a T-50 and all. Those
A lot of modifications, upgrades to
Su-27, which we are witnessing is the Su-35,
Su-34, Su-30MKI, Su-30MKK, their order of 15 mod-
munications will not, because the plane is universal
greasy and solves all the problems, and the earth, and air-
xy, and by sea.
Therefore, the main task — to develop civil
subjects, and for us it is PD-14. As far as we can this
to do? My score: 50 to 50. And it’s not due to the
handicap us as producers, to a greater extent
it is connected with the market. As one of the greats, give
me a place to stand and I will move the earth. So it is here:
if there is a market, the product will do. Those ideas that pro-
lozheny in PD-14, mostly "Aero Engines", in the multi-
gom unique characteristics of the engine somewhere exceed-
DYT, are somewhere in something worse — but basically corresponds
spond to the engine that we are waiting for the market —
LEAP and the PW1400.
— Engine PD-14 was not yet on the market, but in the media
been a lot of criticism in his address …
— I belong to the PR, the media in two ways. There are media-independent
dent in terms of coverage of certain topics and those which
rye and spend money that is invested in them con-
competi-tive. All over the world it is, it’s not bad and not well-
Shaw, that’s life. And everything that we read today on the motion
gatelya PD-14, to put it mildly, does not correspond to the action-
sequences. Here we have to understand one thing. Always at pre-
vodka engine when creating difficulties are encountered.
If little difficulty in finishing and design, will be
great difficulty in operation. If difficulties in the
stage of development a lot, during the operational phase there will be
— And about the SaM146 in the media which just does not see.
And this is an old French engine, and that it is
more about tuning than about the new develop-
— Now we have someone who is not allowed to speak? We all
this carefully listen and smile. The SaM146
created together "Snecma" and "Saturn". Gasifier
Brand New, no gas generators such con-
struction, of such structures has been written that it
will be the fifth generation. That is a completely new con-
competitiveness of the engine. Competitors have serious
for example, "General Electric". I’m not saying that GE does not
can do better, they just made your engine
earlier and say, GE priorities in the creation in
Daubney engines are not in first place. Therefore, we
One of the key indicators of reliability SaM146 —
a willingness to take off the engine of the aircraft — with-
accounts for more than 99.6%. This high reliability motion
gatelya reliability due to its design and pro-
production and is the result of last certification
tion to the EASA. Engine type certification held
in this way (and hence the engine is designed such
way) that he should not refuse any situation.
Of course, there is a force majeure, when it
something horrible, but it is hard to get something, because
that the design features of the engine fan-ta
are such that it not only sucks in air, but also serves as a
armor. And the production of the SaM146 certified
Vano by European standards.
SaM146 — the pride of the Russian and French
engine. By this also includ
es the French.
In general, it is very important for us is how we are treated, for
Western partners. Because they are not engaged by. And of-
wearing Western partners to the management of "Saturn", oc-
Nova on complete trust and respect that is extremely positive
actively and very nice for us.
— As for the PD-14, which means what you said "50 to
50 ‘? As the market has on PD-14 engine to react?
— Why do I say 50 to 50? Just today such
stage of development of the engine, which further increased wholly-
rennosti, mainly in terms of creating an engine is not,
because things can happen that pushed these
terms. For example, it is no secret that the Dreamliner postponed
for 3-4 years.
The market should be prepared for a particular model of tech-
nicknames, create it today. We have a customer in the face
"Irkut", he has to create his plane market
MS-21. Different ways. In particular, the signing of the same-
stkih contracts even before the production of motor-
A, that is, when no car, and the money is already there. Of course,
talk about a contract base MS-21 with our hand-
us is unethical, it is a subject KLA and "Irkut". But I can by-
be noted that the market for this engine plane over there.
This is China and India. There they are needed. I’m not saying that
We do not have competitors. It should be just fine competing
Rowan, need to prove their worth, not by
requests from the country’s leadership: buy a car, it is well-
Shaya. Buy one — no questions — out of respect towards handle-
duction of the country. But no more. It is necessary to prepare for the market
their product, and it is now. Using thus
competent PR, through the media, exhibition activities
kazyvaya not the beauty of the design, and the advantages of engine
of Tell in terms of performance, safety, quiet-
us, sustainability. Safety and environmental today
are at the forefront.
— What should be done today in terms of ODC nor-
velirovaniya intra-corporate competition and create
single brand of the corporation?
— In order for the company to become a brand, you need to have
product which would be associated with it. Today, JDC
there are attempts to create a trademark, brand APC, but so far
still remember the engines Solovyov, Cradles, Kuznetsova …
Remember it is the names of the school. Why "Boeing" is called
"Boeing"? Because it created a Boeing. But there’s a brand
and GE, which is not associated with a specific individual.
Of course, the creation of the brand APC is concerned, but over
this should be a long run. We can talk about the brand
"Saturn" — today our company in the Russian engine
telestroenii number one, and it is known abroad. There were
thought in this period of transition to create a logo "UEC
Rybinsk "," UEC Perm "and so on — perhaps it would be
good. We’re four years have concentrated
hard to ensure that people were going to work on it "Saturn"
for this entire campaign was organized by "I choose
Proponent of I with a single brand? Of course, yes.
But again, the brand created by the product. And it must be clearly
say — when we do it, and under what conditions.
For example, after five years, provided that a PD-14.
I’d like to create a brand simultaneously, immediately. But the-
Who does not happen.
— Please comment on the prospects of
Division of civil engine, the center co-
torogo was the "Saturn": that is now waiting for "Saturn" and the coming-
ing in this division Permian company?
— First you need to calm down all because
Of course, there is some resentment, misunderstanding on the one-
hand "Aero Engines." Do not fear, but ambition. In my
view, the leadership "Aero Engines’ does not understand the degree of
upcoming disaster: the lack of transformation of this-
of the day, it’s a road to nowhere, because more than 80% of the money in
Permian KB is the state of the engine PD-14, and
after a while the stream just simply disappear
no. For any manager of a large company Extraordinary
Tea is important to think about what will happen to the business over the
5 years in the future.
— The "Saturn" long-standing partnership with
Aviation Materials. Now relations have reached a new level. This
is exactly the same charge in the future?
— Firstly, I must say that the head of Aviation Materials
Evgeny Kablov — awesome, close to us
in spirit, in creativity, man.
Aviation Materials is one of the few institutions that deesposo-
bin. He did not just survive, but also developing very well,
has a very good pilot production, not only for
aviation, but also for the missile defense and other topics.
For basic research, which are held in
Aviation Materials, allocated significant public funds.
And if we contract with them, these agree-
Aviation Materials thieves show what to do. Today, for
"Saturn" is very important in the development of the composite,
high-temperature materials, because it is the future of aviation
— Is it possible, in your opinion, to consider the creation of
The cluster network as one of the steps in the direction of com-
plex modernize the country’s infrastructure, a non-
the need which the experts say?
— From the viewpoint of the cluster establishment which knitting-
toils including "Saturn", I say that this is the case
extremely necessary. In the Yaroslavl region in the field of gas
zoturbostroeniya and power-plant includes NGOs
"Saturn", "Saturn-Gas Turbines», GE, a number of other pre-
enterprises and universities. In the area there are human resources, co-
that may work in this area. Such successful
experience is in Perm: "Aircraft Engine" at the time sufficient
just put together a good release of gas turbine ground-
stations of the for gas pumping and generating electricity
energy, and created in the Perm Territory bush manufacturers.
We now aspire to it. The main task of the cluster
sr, that the area was becoming more profitable to
create new jobs in high-tech
sphere. We now have all the organizational documents
you, we know what to do and have already begun this
— According to the experts, you have entered the top 10 managers
teley industry in efficiency and effectiveness
of controlling the company. What, in your view, is determined
it possible the modern manager and has formed a
in the country, in your opinion, a critical mass of modern
managers able to realize the modernization pro-
— On the national scale, it is difficult to say, I can
tell us about the area, I’m doing — it’s air-
tion. If we talk about the defense industry, of course, no fracture.
No fracture for the simple reason that we are all the same
not yet got rid of the feeling of the old brilliance, which
ry was in the Soviet Union. It took more than 20 years
the Soviet era, the State is long gone, and we
all the time thinking of his great victories, which are then
were. And in those 20-plus years of victories for us not so much.
What in engine over the last 20 years production
go? Well, PS-90-2, the developme
nt of D-30KU/KP, 117S, again,
let the deep, but modification of the AL-31F, the new —
SaM146, several cars for cruise missiles, a few
machines in Perm and we at Ground Units, AL-55 for the Indians …
And in general, is all. From all the above can be hot-
ditsya, in my opinion, from the "Saturn" — I do not presume to second-
We shall say for the entire industry, only SaM146 and products for
cruise missiles, if we’re talking about the engines in the fifth
Therefore, the manager must really understand that this is
that way, and every day he has to learn. And each
day he has to say that the Soviet Union is no more
20 years old, and return to it will not be. Therefore, we must de-
lat all completely different — focusing on out-
drive profits. Profit — is the most important thing. I’m not a hundred-
supporter of profit-stage, money-dvigatelestroe
Britain and throughout the defense industry have long cycles, but if
started earlier, it would be much better.
By occupation I know a lot of managers
telyami. I must say one thing — "red directors" are not
was all broken off. But effective thinking, those co-
torye every day unhappy with themselves, and those who are post-
ently studying, there are very few. And young and old alike.
I will give an example. We came to Moscow for the firm,
I will not call it, which is one of our on-
suppliers. Amazing picture: the first is an office-ka
category, sit in it, "white collar". These people, in the pre-
rogih ties, fashion shoes, expensive watches, externally
fully consistent with the concept of "manager." But when
we went on the production, the picture has become quite different: I
I think that even 30 years ago, it was better.
That’s the whole problem. Everyone forgets that we ma-
ter value is created in production. When I
ask what you do, I say, only one-
it — talk to people. And all created there — in the shops,
in the workplace. And of course the long-Manager
women dealing with people — it’s the first thing. And the second — it is the long-
wives are ready to change. Every day.
— In one of your interviews you said that the current mo-
lodyh and consider themselves to be effective managers have
problem — their educational economic bias.
— A person who holds the position of director of the pre-
acceptance must be technically savvy and be sure to
should be a good economist. Let it be.
Economic knowledge is very important. But I definitely
convinced that today people working head
Industrial enterprises should have a basic on-
education — technical. Economics is taught. This is not pro-
lem. Every day you need to learn. It is necessary to train in
that in which you are weak.
The fact is that in the end when the head-
takes a decision on the products. Any economist, restoration
eating at the University of Economics, Institute of
control performance problem solve the same.
How? Very simply, if a product is unprofitable, it is his-
conceals, and people will dismiss. But it is unprofitable, and all that
tomorrow? Maybe this is a unique product?
In order to understand it, to be convinced of the uniqueness and
promising product, you need to have technical on-
Take, for example, Jack Welch, the founder of GE. I told them reproduction
Torgau. He had a brilliant technical education.
And quite easy to become tough leader who
said: I regret only one thing he did not do anything to-
quicker. But in order to do everything faster, you have to be
ready for this. The error bar is large. One step of the non-
did the right thing — and went … nowhere. How many
We upscale aviation firms since passed, as
begin to call them — the tears are flowing.
— Why is it that many things in the life of
Companies depend on one person, who was in his
time in the wrong place?
— The problem of governance in the country is not for me to decide.
There are corporate principles that no one has
transgress the law. Why do I think that the most severe
way, you must stop the actions of those leaders, co-
torye when deciding on a corporate plan-
Chin resort to unconventional methods. This is non-
correctly. If you do not agree with the policy of the shareholder,
representative of the owner, the only way of combating
to — is to write a letter of resignation. Only
then begin to speak. And we have quite the other-
— You do not Alexander Inozemtsev mean?
— Really! I’m talking about the system.
As for Alexander, we had to
brilliant human relations. But between
"Saturn" and "Aero Engines’ is a discussion of the forms
and methods of bringing PD-14 engine. This is a very well-
Shaw, that we have a different approach to the engine.
The main controversy lies in the fact that we are on
"Saturn" believe that it is necessary at once to create on-ka
nonam EASA and immediately certify the western stan-
dards, and the "aircraft engines" create it for Soviet
canons. The best man win — that is us.
No other differences we have. All this controversy about
how to build the engine. We say that we must build
based on the experience of the program SaM146, on which there is already
result. Based on experience in creating CFM-56, which
1600 engines manufactured annually. We have to go on ka-
nonam create successful engine.
— A few words about the other programs. Works
PAK FA are in the schedule?
— Everything is on schedule. We have a lot of talk about
This engine, and who only spoke of it. But it must be
understand that there are state secrets, there is state-
lic interest, there is competition. And talk about it
is entitled only to the customer, which acts
The Ministry of Defense.
— What are the prospects at the "Saturn" in the market pro-
industrial and marine turbine engine?
— In this area, we have reached the undoubted technical con-
Pekhov. In particular, the design services of "Saturn"
A new marine engine capacity of 8 MW with a two-
fuel combustor proposed solutions pos-
Will it be used as a gas and a liquid
fuel, automatically switch from one fuel
It is said that the range of land-based subjects in general
largish from 2.5 to 110 MW. We must SKON-
centered on competitive products, in particular
In particular, of special interest to us is the GTD-10RM.
— And what will happen to "stodesyatkoy?"
— There is a debate. First, the GTD-110 is competition
you are. Second, these cars today no real order.
At the same time, GTD-110 — unique turbine having
advantages in weight and efficiency. But no one admits that
machine at the time was not finished. But now this
the problem is actually solved by the embedded con-
struktorskih making use of outsourcing by pro-
production of blades. Moreover, we have a corresponding
schaya program with the Ministry of Industry, which is financially
support from the federal budget. We are in co-
joint work with RUSNANO opening on stage agree-
Worn activities. We have a customer — INTER RAO
EES, which is interesting machine. We are now preparing
program that should play a role in the long-
shem development project. At the same time we must not forget
support for existing machines that have pro-
What will the debate about the fate of the GTD-110, w
nyatno six months later. APC, in general, the company is such that
all issues are resolved it is controversial, because in-
We ask these very diverse, very heavy. And while the
UEC is on the right path, errors in its decisions prac-
cally was not.
— Probably, these internal discussions should not be early hour,
above in time to spill out?
— I agree. And these are the "external" debate "Saturn"
tries not to react for one simple reason that
entry into unnecessary debate tears at the main
— But there is an information war to fight for market share.
— Information warfare is and should be. But as
it is in civilized countries? It is much harder
but less chatter. Behind that big money and the time-
development of the company. Everything has to be on time.