Always Do the majority of people right? What will be the consequences for the Irish referendum the European Union, and namely, the prospects for its expansion? On these topics in the program "Prague accent" argues analyst Ian Maksimyuk our radio journalist Vitaly Portnikov last salting and Belarus in Germany by Peter Sadowski. We bring you the first part of the transmission.
Drakakhrust"The results of the referendum in Ireland, where the majority of voters rejected the contract on the reform of the EU, has created a real political earthquake. Repeated in 2005, when France and the Netherlands in referenda buried predecessor of today’s Lisbon contract — a Constitution for Europe.
Before talk about the implications of the Irish vote, I propose to ponder such philosophical and political science problem. Ireland ratified the contract before the 18 member countries of the Union, and all — through parliament, after the Irish referendum to reform the Union Parliament voted England. One of Ireland was obliged to conduct a plebiscite specifically, and the total, as well as three years back the French and Dutch negative.
Gets impression that the elite of European countries, business, the media — are increasingly in favor of continuing European integration, and the people, the population — well, where as in Ireland, for example, against. This vote added fuel to the fire of an old controversy. People expressed their will, and all must bow before it — they say alone. Elite should lead the masses and not to reach for them, and when the masses are irresponsible and stupid, elites have their will, well, if not abolish, the bypass — others say. Is there a universal approach, universal radio?
Now, let’s say, in Ukraine in all the polls for the country’s accession to NATO — a minority. But imperative elite stubbornly promotes this project. Whose side rightness — on the side of the elite or the masses? And in Ireland, where, incidentally, the vast majority of political parties and the government urged people to say in a referendum "yes"? Do people always right and his views must be considered? How Maksimyuk do you think? "
Maksimyuk"Referendum unpredictable, and therefore they should be avoided altogether. Referendum — it is very terrible weapon in the hands of a clever populist politician. All their principled solutions, German Chancellor Adolf Hitler spent through plebiscites. Recall what the international status of Belarus led referendums of 1995, 1996 and 2004-th years.
In Ireland at the moment was carried out a survey to find out what the circumstances of the Irish voted against the Lisbon treaty. It turned out that most do not know what this treatise, the prime minister of Ireland admitted he had not read the document from mirror to mirror. If it is such a daunting document, it can not be submitted to a referendum. Those countries that have chosen the way of ratification of the treatise by Parliament, received more appropriate. In Ireland, such legislation is that it was unrealistic to avoid a referendum. Means, it was necessary to conduct a completely different education campaign. "
Drakakhrust"Ian, then maybe such a complex puzzle, the election authority, the people also should not trust? Does he understand this?"
Maksimyuk"All the same, the election authorities — this is not a vote on whether such a Byzantine structure of the bureaucracy, which is now the European Union. Some people explain things better than an abstract treatise."
Drakakhrust"Vitaly Portnikov, and what is your position on this dilemma? Before you question as to European problems and the browser as a Ukrainian citizen, where this problem is very serious."
Portnikov"I would not have associated the situation with Ukrainian accession to NATO and that happened in Ireland. In Ireland, all the main political forces in the country were in favor of ratification of the Treaty of Lisbon, was only against the party" Sinn Fein ", which does not belong to the influential political forces country. against Ukraine joining NATO serves the Party of Regions, one of the most influential forces in the country, which in the last parliamentary elections, a relatively large portion of the vote.
In Ukraine — contradictions in the elite about the upcoming development. These contradictions reflect the contradictions in Ukrainian society. In Ireland, consolidated political elite lost society.
We must be aware that such general referendumnaya democracy. In some situations it is effective, in others it is not so necessary for the country. If all decisions are taken through the disposition of the reform referendum, nobody will not be moved on a step.
Democracy is the delegation of power, society has delegated authority to the competent public and political figures who joined voedinyzhdy political parties, and they are already making decisions necessary for society.
Here — a barrier between the decisions that he has to take people and the decisions to be taken by its representatives. I think that the Irish referendum — a result of the conflict is not between the elites and the people, and between people and the bureaucracy. People can not grasp the logic of this bureaucracy. Error, it seems to me, not in Lisbon treatise error in frisky, neobmyslennym until the end of the expansion of the Union, which has become an organization that is very difficult to manage. And the profound and almost permanent crisis, which is the EU, leads to the conclusion that hardly officials governing Union agree that the decision was a mistake and that the crisis will be overcome in the coming years. "
Drakakhrust"Peter Sadowski, at one time Winston Cherchyll said that" the war — it is a very harsh thing to trust its military. " So, it can rephrase this makarom that democracy — it is a very harsh thing to trust its people? "
Sadowski"These expressions, as well as a comparison with the great European who either goes or does not go — all these wonderful phrases and less. Deeply you raised the question, trying to bring the Irish precedent for the wider level. And remember about Ukraine. I would said that they are two different versions.
Ukraine currently does civilizational choice tyscha years this slavyanschiny under cover of Russian imperialism. That still left in Ireland? 3 million voters, 53% of the role. They put in front of the problem of 500 million Europeans. What was there in fact? Increased fuel prices, the products are becoming more expensive, fishermen in Ireland have the problem of how to catch and sell fish, the media and politicians screaming about the decline of Europe. All this is interwoven into one lump, so these alyarmistskiya mood and handed population.
In fact there is nothing terrible failed. Who looks for constitutional processes in the EU, remember that is an agreement, which was adopted in Nice. And it contains the formula, according to which "certain countries may deepen integration in the framework of enhanced cooperation." Currently in Brussels brought together representatives of the Union to discuss the Irish prepyadstviya. "
"Our conversation ran across the next question — the question of results, or something terrible happened or not, and in general that still happened. Currently many, including in Belarus, they say in connection with the fruits of this vote victory of the idea of state of the country over the centripetal projects cosmopolitan leveling of the people’s victory over the Brussels bureaucracy.
Sovereign Sadowski has been remembered someone clever saying that the European Integration — this is great, it is either going forward falls. If, and already the second time by the will of peoples to move forward to do not come out, not to downgrade European integration far back, when a united Europe at least in some sense do not have to read?
There nuance and international affairs. U.S. Our homeland, China have a common political will, and Europe — no. But the political power of each of the States of the Union is much weaker than these giants. Together they could be equal, but together is just not coming out. Pure fact — say, Russia is even easier to agree on more profitable criteria in each of the 27 states of the Union, for example, on energy issues than the political monolith Europe. And the Irish and the chances of rebellion buried this monolith. So the Irish referendum — a victory or defeat? "
Portnikov"This is a victory and a defeat. Defeat in the sense that the EU will now be obliged to find some way to further develop. Victory as was natural that an organization such as the European Union, can not develop without being aware of the specific particular legislation of member countries that the situation with the development of the EU will never be solved only by the bureaucracy. "
Drakakhrust‘Sire Sadovsky, and your eyes, this is a victory or defeat? On the one hand, the Irish Patriotic Tipo defended Europe against Europe Brussels bureaucracy. But Brussels bureaucracy — is now in politics a scarecrow. Here, for example, the euro — a sign power and unity of Europe. But the euro is impossible without one emission center. This implies the need for bureaucracy.
And there is an international aspect that applies to Belarus and Ukraine. Will Europe have a common energy policy? If Europe will not be united, such policies will not. Or you disagree? "
Sadowski"This is a very pointed statement of the problem. Obviously I like Belarusians, as a person who lives in a country with an unfinished civilization, with the unfinished state identity, I have an impulse of solidarity. But that" unfortunately "because I feel sorry for Europe sorry that Germany, as I know it perfectly Germanic. Unfortunately, European patriotism is expressed exclusively in the business, when large business structures work in one country and in football.
And yet I believe that the EU will never allow "Gazprom" has come to Europe and parts of the shared European countries. I remember how once in Munich Putin cynically said the Germans: "We have to offer special terms, and you will be our distributors in the rest of the EU."
Have adopted 20 years ago, the Energy Charter, and of course, that Europe will not back down from this. And if the Germans build that "Nord Stream" with the Russians, it would still be somehow consistent with other countries. "
Drakakhrust"Ian Maksimyuk, how do you imagine weighed the advantages and shortcomings of the Irish vote?"
Maksimyuk"It would be very unfair to one million Irish, who uttered" no "treatise, threw his will 480 million Europeans. I wish to remind you that if the Lisbon treaty enters into force, the treaty will operate from Nice. This last treatise also EU holds in a heap, a treatise from Nice practically only limited ability to expand the European Union: it allows you to expand the European Union on Greece, but does not allow — or Makedoniyu on Turkey, which also are the official candidates.
Treatise of Nice Irish, by the way, also took only the second call. I believe that the leaders of the European Union here invent a legal hook to hold a second referendum in Ireland. It is possible that Ireland will simply fall out of the integration process, while others go a bit faster, and Ireland remains behind. It is certain finomenom because specifically Ireland belongs to the countries that most benefited from EU membership. "Tags: European Union, Ireland, referendum