The truth about the war: one for all or each different?
Drakakhrust: "The dramatic action in Estonia related to the transfer of Russian soldier monument, steel, except for the rest, to the same tough encounter different, diametrically different views on World War II. And it’s not actually in the fate of the monument in Tallinn — he was not demantazhavany or destroyed, and transferred to a military cemetery — and these different approaches, which is true enough deklyaravalisya for a long time until this conflict.
I will allow myself to quote the words of the President of Estonia Toomas Hendrik Ilves: "In our minds, this soldier embodies deportation and murder, destruction of the country, rather than liberation. One group of thugs — the Nazis — was expelled another gang — Russian troops".
Hard to say, a significant part of Estonian society divides the world head of state. Maybe significant. But here comes the broader question: Does the existence of the right to private, state the truth about the war? War was global, it was decided the fate of the world in general. Can the government’s true national vision contradicts global?
Or any at all, but there is only individual national truth, estimates that can not be the same? Pavel Morozov, what do you think? "
Akudovich "second global war from my point of view was not the war, and the global catastrophe in the form of war. And there is no truth in the crash. Invent truth War ideologues, politicians, publicists victorious side. Next we used to believe that as in II World War I was the aggressor, Germany and its allies, the one who fought with them, led a just war. At first glance here and do nothing objection, much less that the German fascism manifested true ruthless monster.
But if we act anti-Hitler coalition appreciate categories truth categories of just war, we must recognize the fair not only the division of Germany into two countries and for half a century occupation of Eastern Europe by Russian troops, and dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombs.
And since now take all this just is not necessary, it is better to abandon use in assessing the war categories such as truth, justice, and similar to them. In addition, it is useful to keep in mind that no one fought for a lie, it was a fight for justice, but each had its own it. And a German soldier, and a Japanese kamikaze and French partisans and Red Army gave their lives for some truth. This is when more than 50 million people have died, those who remained alive, explained to whose truth was fair, and whose — deception. There is no truth in the war. "
Drakakhrust: "Valentin Taras, I have to for you the same question: have the right to exist in truth, some national assessments of the war, there are also some universal truth global, global vision of World War II, which corresponds to the her temper? "
Taras: "Here I wish to bring to the logical conclusion that at the moment read the crown: that the Nazis had their own true that the German soldier also thought that fights for justice.
During the war, at one point in Auschwitz red cross commission came from Switzerland. They met with the commandant of Auschwitz Gesam and asked him, "How can you live here, if there every day thousands of people are destroyed?" "People — said Hess. — If I had even one moment admitted that these people, I would let myself for a bullet in the forehead."
Though the German Nazism appears as an absolute evil at the time. In this sense, those who fought against German Nazism, defended the truth of the entire population of the earth. "
Drakakhrust: "Oleg Gordienko, at the moment the position of the Estonian government criticizes the largely Russian press, Russian policy which can be clarify or imperial postymperskimi complexes of.
But here’s a quote from the Russian edition did not:
"Estonians with quite understandably emphasize the role that Russians and Jews played in the sins of the Communists, at the same time ignore Estonians cooperation with the Nazis or understate the importance of this cooperation. Russian Jews with their own parties continue to consider the victory of the Red Army in Estonia and the end of the Nazi occupation as liberation and salvation … Removing monument government Andrus Ansip obviously playing on nationalist emotions, but in the eyes of ethnic groups, kept the Red Army, such a step is bordered on blasphemy ".
This is the "Jerusalem Post", article Zurava Ephraim, Director Simon Wiesenthal Center. The center is engaged in the pursuit of Nazi war criminals globally. This assessment of the sounds from a country that did not respect unwell imperial complexes Estonia. Maybe their own state the truth.
It is for you, Oleg, the same question splits the truth about the war on individual national truth, there is a universal assessment? "
Gordienko, "I would certainly like Paul Morozov, delved concept true in this context. Established in the world look to the actions of the war of the winners: American, British, Russian Union-Russia and even France. But in this war, participated several small states, and in each of these states had their own eyes on these actions, in the same Estonians.
I wish to remind you that the Global War II did not begin June 22, 1941 and August 1, 1939. And these 18 months — until the Soviet-German war — umyastsili a Russian occupation troops in Estonia and terrible deportation. And of course, that Estonians rejoiced German occupation and greeted her with flowers.
And I believe that Estonian President Ilves fully human. if the name of the Estonian people says that the war was fought 2-gangs. For Estonians, and the first and second were the occupiers. Own eyes in Latvia, Lithuania has its own look, in Croatia. And you have to try to realize these approaches.
While Europe looks at the sight of these actions War 4 victorious powers, until she begins to realize that thinks about this Eastern Europe — Poland, Lithuania, the Czech Republic — will be hard. We litsezreem on this situation with the transfer of the monument to Russian warriors in Tallinn, Estonia intercede for that only neighboring states and Lech Kaczynski. Western Europe is, it seems to me, looking indifferent to these actions in Tallinn. "
Drakakhrust: "Well, Oleg, you have no rights: in support of Estonia officially acted as NATO, the European Commission officially made the whole — the whole and not only the representatives of the states of Eastern Europe."
Gordienko, "But no protests over the antics of the Russian Federation, which are made in Moscow."
Drakakhrust: "Specifically on this and had proper application of both NATO and the European Commission, and by the way, the United States. But it incidentally."
Gordienko, "There can be a general truth, a common vision: each pursuing its own goals in this war."
Taras: "I understand Estonians and would fool or mad if refute the torment of the Estonian people, all the things that brought them to the Russian authorities, Russian occupation. Yes, I agree, it was an occupation. But I believe that all Estonian government also made a mistake, he most obscurantist heating feelings reign in modern Russian, he heating xenophobia, hatred of their neighbors.
And if you go back to the general question regarding certain truths about World War II, I still think — and this is my deepest conviction — that there was a general in the war in the fight against Hitler’s fascism.
It’s not about what mode — Stalin or Hitler — was the lesser evil, and though generally between them fundamentally no different, although he and the other was with 2 millstones 1st mill, which appeared between the Belarusian people, at the Total depth is determined not like war Stalinism, and the resistance of the people, the Belarusian people alien cluster, its battle for not only its historical, and just physical existence.
The Nazis were bad people alternately and very meticulous, and their plans to eliminate not only the Jews, and Slavs, if not in the crematoria ovens (which, incidentally, is also provided), the method anyamechvannya to commit to finish.
We should keep in mind and remember, especially young people, that all this has been confirmed in Nuremberg, the international court. Our people in 1941 felt that the survival instinct and immediately examined in the German fascism animal is more frustrating than your own, "home" animal. Yes, this exotic animal and did not conceal his own nature, and the first steps as it was on our soil and bloody inhuman. "
Was the victory of the Belarusian victory?
Drakakhrust: "Taras Valentin started talking about the next question, more specific and close to Belarus. Soon the Belarusian literature, historiography, journalism, there are discussions about whether or II global war our majestic Russian, Byelorussian war, what it Belarusian State consisted enthusiasm whether he was at all? And was victory in the war and the victory of the Belarusian? And what are your answers to these questions? Pavel Morozov. "
Akudovich: "Early in the 1990s, I typed in" Lima "article" Lofty Russian or second global ", where he tried to prove that the Belarusians that war was not and could not be majestically Russian. Fact, Belarusians at that time had no fatherland, because they were not yet formed as a civilization, they just lived on this earth and if fought, then fought under the Russian or German or duress to release or escape from the war itself. Belarusian State enthusiasm for the war, certainly was. Belarusians want and be free from the Germans and the Soviets. But in-1’s, such Belarusians were not so much, and, in-2, the dominant state-monsters and were not going to ask about their Belarusian national interests.
As for the contribution of Belarusians in the victory over fascism, he, free or involuntary, was great. But about winning some Belarusians in general I’d read did not. We have been before the war in Russian concentration camp, so it remained. "
Drakakhrust: "Oleg Gordienko, Pavel Morozov said on actions during the war statesmen. Remembered I would experience another country — France, where Marshal Petain, who headed the Vichy republic, was not at all easy pryslugachom Hitler, he thought about France, to maintain a part of France. And by the way, the degree of independence of the Republic of Vichy was significantly greater than that of all other municipal formations, made under the auspices of German Nazism. And yet, France made its own verdict: "Peten — traitor," and the verdict is a live and up now. "
Gordienko, "So it is. But we must note that in France in 1940 was for many centuries beyond the government, so that Petain was cast aside. And Belarusians did not own the country, here I agree with Valentin Akudovich.
In-2, do not forget that in 1939 Belarus was divided into two parts: the eastern part of the USSR came and western — in Poland. Two very different societies. And the inhabitants of the western part of Belarus in any case hard to call traitors, people, for sure, besides passports paatrymlivali not to beat for the same Soviet Motherland.
It should also distinguish between two things. The vast majority of the population in this time casually trying to survive on this terrain, very long time trying not to get on any way — neither is Russian or the German side. From 1941 to 1944, the most reassuring estimates in Belarus partisans were 375 thousand people.
It is clear that in the event of war, even more so in social and political life, participate about 5 — 10% of the population. Specifically, it can be attributed to the Belarusian State enthusiasm to those same politicians.
The situation was such that by the end of 1930 or Russian Minsk or Moscow Russian or Belarusian Warsaw not solved the national question. In the Russian state, everything was destroyed, there were mass repressions. Poland, too, no matter what the Belarusian autonomy did not go. And it is natural that the Belarusian national figures (they were a few 10s) sent a note to Germany, which declared The latest Europe.
With this experience was positive: almost got hold of independence thanks to Hitler Slavic countries Croatia and Slovakia. And Belarusians believe the German declarations.
But the Germans were not going to give this independence, there was no talk even of autonomy. Maybe national figures were wrong, I didand bet on Germany. But then a propaganda machine worked perfectly. Then all perfectly camouflaged, by 1942 wasof hard to extract the Germans on any punitive operations only at the end of 1942 — in 1943 it became evident that this repressive regime. Then many began to curtail its activities in this.
And about winning — it is clear that the positive was the fact that the war was over, there was peace. That’s a plus. However, Belarus has emerged from these events in a terrible state. "
Taras: "I’m hard enough to withstand such a measured, academic tone, for not going to deny that I’ve been to some extent engaged by a person since I myself was a partisan of 18 months, although he was a child. And it can not determine my position .
I can agree with the fact that the designated public enthusiasm Belarusians in the war had not. So, people have survived such a position — to survive, not to listen to any one nor the other — was a typical village.
But I believe that in the history very far sight. And we fought against Hitler’s fascism if the criteria of the Nazi occupation, we fought for the Belarus, which I do, and Valentin Akudovich mean. Not that Belarus, in which we now live, and that we wish to create — truly democratic, ind
ependent, rich. If this animal is not Hitler was defeated and destroyed, it is unlikely for all of us, the participants in this conversation, would talk like that and throw an academic look at the actions.
I was here, I was with my own eyes beheld it all. In my squad — I’m on a partisan Volozhinschine in Naliboki Forest, about Pershai — were about 30 people on Citizens. And not far away they were Communists or Komsomol members were people of different ages, a wide variety of professions. And they went to the woods because their dignity outraged completely disgusting, brutal nature of the occupation regime: people could not build as methodically destroyed Jewish ghetto, as per prastupak you could hang on the gallows … So it was not all exactly.
My wife’s family — is repressed, the dispossessed. My father in law sat in the year 1937 in Stalin’s torture chambers. In 1943 he became a guerrilla connected. In the game never entered, Stalin could not tolerate, but deliberately helped the guerrillas. So there was no way that only survived, and that only ideology played a role. "
Righteous and just cause
Drakakhrust: "I wish to come back to the idea of Valentine Akudovich with which he started the war was just a disaster, a catastrophe, and no truth in it was not. I wish to remind the views of Winston Churchill, as the 1st of the favorites in the war, which, as -then said: "In war, you can not be righteous, but it should be your spravyadivay." And if you try to apply this formula to the last known Englishman war in Belarus?
Recently Time wasAnnounced on many facts that, say, reddish Belarusian partisans were, to put it mildly, not angels. But does it matter for evaluation? Same as did Russian partisans in Belarus, do, say, French partisans poppies AKavtsy made in Poland, in general partisan in all countries are equally unfolds around — "can not be righteous." But the final assessment, although Churchill determines not it — "but your work should be fair." So was a fair deal? And that generally determines the correctness, justice of the cause? Pavel Morozov. "
Akudovich: "Churchill — a brilliant master of political aphorisms. But if you look at the most under this aphorism, the brilliance of his that is not much. And in a situation with Belarus, for whom this war was not, as already mentioned, Russian, and means and had total integrals read about the general for all the just cause, in my view, is not necessary. For very different here was justice for a diverse population.
As correctly read Oleg, the absolute majority of Belarusians wanted just to survive. Only later, much later, and we adore the Belarusians and Belarusian partisans and our heroic pathos in this war, let me forgive very pochetaemy Valentin Taras.
But still, this heroic associated only with small number of people. "
Drakakhrust: "The Emperor Morozov, excuse me, I have a question to the thesis, which gives you and Oleg. Prague survive — she was at all. And all nations eventually arithmetically minority participated in the war — it was the Russians have Yankees, the British, even the Germans.
In the war can not participate in the physical layer all civilization. And so your idea about the fact that the majority of Belarusians stand aloof, maybe they relate to at least some of the people? "
Morozov: "Not exactly. Formed long in the states that already had a national consciousness, was anger against the occupation of their country and their state of the national idea. Because the percentage of those who fought, fought consciously, and was not just thrown into the jaws of the insatiable Moloch War, there was even more, though, of course, and everyone there wanted to survive.
At the same time the Belarusian situation was a situation without a country, without a precise state of the community: people always some lived under occupation. I already wrote that Belarusians do not even have a grammatical category of its own time, they usually read: it was for the Germans, the Poles, in Russian. They constantly lived for someone. And for some reason Belarusians specifically with the German occupation suddenly wanted so very much to beat.
I understand the pathos Valentine Taras, but let us remember that this horrible Nazi German anger component in total volume of» apparent much later. Then, if someone fought, then fought the occupier and aggressor, and not this terrible fascism.
Belarusians had no special motivation to fight another occupier. They have long been accustomed to the occupation, as the pressure of the atmosphere: not the occupation, the other one is more rigid, the other less rigid. And because, by definition, if the Belarusian and wished that wished to survive, rather than overcome. Belarusians could not overcome a priori, because to win, you must have an idea about themselves as» sub object on which someone attacks. "
Drakakhrust: "Oleg, I appeal to you for as historian. Pavel Morozov postulated that Belarusians are partially hidden, as the state did not have the enthusiasm, the state of consciousness, and other people who had it, the whole mass of the people involved in the fight on or other side. Can you substantiate or refute this arithmetically by comparing the proportion of people who participated in the reddish underground in Belarus, with a little bit of anti-Nazi partisan role in the compounds, for example, in France? "
Gordienko, "France has participated in the collaboration of about 150 thousand people, and the partisans — 170 thousand. No. roughly similar. But I do agree with Valentin Akudovich that Belarusians really tried more than survive in this situation. And do not forget that about 80% Belarusian population were farmers. And for farmers was the main, that the taxes were lower.
Why in Western Belarus, they welcomed the Germans? Since it is not entirely different life was in Poland, was social distress. Expect tips, and many really welcomed them with flowers. Wonder what will be a relief. Came councils showed itself in all its own "beauty" because flowers greeted the Germans into thinking that they will bring relief. And in eastern Belarus was the same.
But when the persecution began, especially since 1943, many, especially in Eastern Belarus prefer to go to the guerrillas. After the forest was easier to survive than in a village somewhere in the Mogilev region.
It should also be understood that in Western Belarus was a powerful Polish partisan. By 1943 she was quantified apparently more than Russian. In the midst of Novogrudok and Lida Region Polish partisans was a significant percentage of the Orthodox population. Certainly, a significant part sought to steer away, and ideological enough, those that deliberately fought and Russian partisans and Polish partisans. There were those who sincerely fought on the side of the Germans — in police squads — or in Belarusian compounds — "Belarusian self-defense", "Belarusian edge protection."
We have 40 — 50 years idealizavali Soviet partisan. Later, in the middle of the 1990s, a steep slope in the direction of government officials in some editions. Their all those who fought against the Bolsheviks, suddenly became heroes and angels. Can not itself be necessary to consider each person separately, put in front of him improvised scales, not a bad place to the left cup, bad — on the right, and look, that will outweigh. And consider that this action of the war.
Well, yes, men robbed Belarusian peasants, many farmers feared guerrilla more than the Germans. But the guerrillas, too, was to live, eat, take somewhere resources to fight the Nazis. "
Drakakhrust: "Oleg, I wish to come back again to the figures. According to you, the 50 million 150 thousand French collaborators was 170 thousand as a partisan — only 320 thousand intensively involved in this war. 10,000,000th In Belarus, for you, 370 thousand were only in Russian partisan. And then you and sovereign Morozov says that French civilization throughout warfare, and Belarusians were sitting in the bushes? numbers indicate faster on working. "
Gordienko, "No, 370 thousand — are not people with a gun, it is the resources that would be partisans. Their was a little less. Digital participates in the struggle, in all countries approximately similar. France could be spiritual opposition, those who have an active role neither a partisan nor underground did not take, but clearly aware that he was French, it was the Germans and he was against them. We had a little different situation. "
Taras: "In particular, when I listened to Valentine Akudovich, I created a memory, that I wish to prove that I was not there and did not beheld that there were only some such Belarusians who want only to survive — and nothing more.
I beheld other Belarusians. In my squad most of Belarusian peasants were men, while Westerners from Volozhin and adjacent areas. And I say to you, that they not only want to survive — have been their human dignity, their was the realization — not the same as we have with you now, academic, highly educated and normal human awareness of what is happening and why it is necessary be in the forest with a gun in his hands.
Apparently, neither Oleg nor Pavel Morozov beheld not my movie, which was once shown on Belarusian television. This movie monologue where I spoke about his own war on their own partisan, and talked about how horrible, inhuman, ruthless, and that was on our side. And then I collapsed municipal press, and Veterans’ Committee appealed to the Attorney General with a letter, which ensure that the tribunal gave me as a traitor for what I show Belarusian partisans kidnappers, they came and took away the cattle, rye, odezhku.
I lived through it all, it was a powerful attack on me. Those people pretended bread for partisans hung here and there in the trees.
It is clear that the Belarusian peasants suffer from partisan, it was tremendous and with all this irregular army. And here is Oleg read about this, it was necessary to eat every day. All it was, I did not hide and do not hide.
About what was not righteous. Here in my squad who just may be, are only human types however. There were great people, and bad, and mean, and were such as that without any job in the village turn, then try to buy only good thing itself. And there were those that drank wireless. It was, it was such a human mess. But there was also a common cause. And they stood on this stand and stand, it was necessary to beat, banish this alien creature. That was done.
Naturally, it is difficult to even kind of war — and in fact, and those that are at the moment — talk about the kind of justice. War — always terrified, but at the general integral of our war, the common denominator was still. "